(Almost) everything you'll ever need to know on modes and scales!

Hey there, guys. Since there has been a little bit of confusion about modes, keys and scales, I figured I should make a topic about it. I'm currently a 7th year piano student and I have done my fair share of theory and passed all three exams with respectively a 10, a 8.5 and a 9. (Out of 10)
Let's go, shall we?

Let's start with the most basic scale of all:
C Major. This is commonly known as 'all the white keys on a keyboard'. It follows this pattern:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8

From here on, if there's talk about 2nd, then I mean the 2nd note in a scale, in this case a D.

Interesting here is to note how the scale is built out of whole steps and half steps (I just hope you know what those are, otherwise you can always ask):

C-D-E---F-G-A-B---C-D-E---F-G-A-B---C-D-E---F-G-A-B---
-1-1-0.5-1-1-1-0.5-1-1-0.5-1-1-1-0.5-1-1-0.5-1-1-1-0.5-

Notice the pattern? 2 whole, half, 3 whole, half, 2 whole, half, 3 whole. This is the Basic major pattern. Remember this. It'll get handy in the future.

Making Major scales with sharps
C major is our basic scale. Now, to make the next scale with one sharp in the key signature more, we use the following manipulation:
Start from 5th, RAISE the 7th note in the new scale a half step

Starting from C major, this yields:
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G
This is the G major scale and has one sharp on the F. In a sheet, this looks like this:

The sharp is localised on the F.
If you count the half steps and whole steps, you'll see it follows the same pattern.

We continue with this scale to make one with two sharps:
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D
Hello, D major! The signature looks like this, with TWO sharps:


Now, can you make the further major scales, all the way up to the key of C#?

That was the MAJOR SHARP part.
Onto MAJOR FLAT.

How to make Major scales with flats
C major is our basic scale. Now, to make the next scale with one added flat in the key signature, we use the following manipulation:
Start on the 4th, LOWER the 4th in the new scale a half step

Starting out with C major, this yields:
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F
Once again, you see this follows the step pattern described above.
The key signature looks like this:


Continuing:
Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb
Same pattern, looks like this:


So far the MAJOR part. MINOR is next!

Making Minor Scales
Turning a major scale into a minor is relatively easy. Just apply the following manipulation:
Start from the 6th, preserve all sharps and flats.
Our new scale is the relative minor scale to the major scale.

Starting from C major, which has no sharps or flats, we go to A minor:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
A minor is the relative minor to C major, okay?
Easy enough, right? Now lets make G major in a minor scale:
This is G major:
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G

The 6th here is an E, thus our manipulation yields E minor:
E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E

Can you make the pattern for G minor?
The key signatures for minor scales look exactly the same as their major counterparts. I'll come to distinguishing between the two later. First, more minor scales!

More minor scales
There are actually three types of minor scales: Natural, Harmonic and Melodic. Seems like a lot of things to learn, but it's pretty easy. You already know Natural minor scales. Natural minor scales where the things I showed you above. Harmonic and Melodic minor scales are acquired with simple manipulation of their natural minor scales.

Harmonic:
Raise the 7th
Simple, no?
Starting from A minor, we get:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A

From E minor:
E-F#-G-A-B-C-D#-E
Simple enough, no?

Onto melodic:
Going up, raise the 6th and 7th. Going down, play as if natural.
Going from A minor:
A-B-C-D-E-F#-G#-A | A-G-F-E-D-C-B-A

E minor:
E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D#-E | E-D-C-B-A-G-F#-E

That's all there is to minor scales!

Pentatonic and blues scales
Both pentatonic and blues scales are very widely used in music. As a bass player, you will mostly need the first one, but it never hurts to learn the blues scale as well, since it's so close. Let's take a look at major pentatonic scales first:

Take the major scale, throw out the 4th and 7th.
C major pentatonic (C major is C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C):
C-D-E-G-A-C
B major pentatonic (B major is B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A#-B):
B-C#-D#-F#-G#-B

Give E major pentatonic a shot!

Minor pentatonic scales work as follows:
Take the minor scale, throw out the 2nd and 6th.
C minor pentatonic (C minor is C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C):
C-Eb-F-G-Bb-C
A minor pentatonic (A minor is A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A):
A-C-D-E-G-A

Can you make B minor pentatonic?

Blues scales are not really relevant to bass-dom, but they can be helpful.
Take the minor pentatonic scale, add a flat fifth (this is the note between the 4th and 5th).
C blues (C minor pentatonic is C-Eb-F-G-Bb-C):
C-Eb-F-Gb-G-Bb-C
A blues (A minor pentatonic is A-C-D-E-G-A):
A-C-D-Eb-E-G-A

Can you figure out F blues?

Time for modes
You can play scales in different modes. If you're playing a scale in a different mode, you start from a different point in the scale and keep all flats and sharps intact. You already know the Aeolian mode, which is our Natural Minor. All starting points have different names:

Mode name	Note to start from
Ionian (major)	1st
Dorian	2nd
Phrygian	3rd
Lydian	4th
Mixolydian	5th
Aeolian (minor)	6th
Locrian	7th

The name of the scale is the note you start from followed by the name in the table. So the scale D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D would be D Dorian. However, it is derived from C.
Let's take a quick look at how these things are constructed. Say, we want E Phrygian. We need to figure out the scale to construct this from. Luckily, this is easy. Which scale has E as it's 3rd note? C major. C major is like this: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
All we do now is play the exact same notes, starting on the E:
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E

Let's give A mixolydian a go. Mixolydian means we start on the fifth note of a scale. A is the fifth note on the scale of D, which goes D-F#-G-A-B-C-D. Hence, A mixolydian becomes:
A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A.

Can you make D locrian?

Conclusion
That's it for now. I hope everything was clear. Also, the mode section should be in order now.

Haven't finished but seems to be very good.
Clears up a few of the problems i had with understanding and actually goes into the construction of scales unlike some other explanations.
Nice Work
EDIT: one minor suggestion instead of (or along with) using treble clef it may be an idea to use bass clef, just thinking that considering that's what the majority of the music we'll be playing is written it it would make sense to see how different keys are notated.

The modes are new stuff to me, but they pretty much look like order of notes in a chord
on a keyboard. I wonder if the english term would be "transposition".

Like C major. When the lowest note is tonic, its 1st transposition (or whatsit).
The 2nd transposition is got when you move the tonic from the lowest to highest keeping other notes at place: C, E, G => E, G, C.

Also it looks like many of the modes are kind of different "transpositions" of the basic (major) scale. Starting with tonic (1st), starting with 3rd, starting with 5th, ...

Is there a mode starting with gin?

quickly read through it and it is exactly what i was trying to say in some other posts
except i coulndt really word it

only thing i would add is that a minor scale and major scale that have the same key signature are called relative minor/major scales
if u already said it i apologise

EDIT this should be stickied

turboscrew wrote:The modes are new stuff to me, but they pretty much look like order of notes in a chord
on a keyboard. I wonder if the english term would be "transposition".

Like C major. When the lowest note is tonic, its 1st transposition (or whatsit).
The 2nd transposition is got when you move the tonic from the lowest to highest keeping other notes at place: C, E, G => E, G, C.

Also it looks like many of the modes are kind of different "transpositions" of the basic (major) scale. Starting with tonic (1st), starting with 3rd, starting with 5th, ...

Is there a mode starting with gin?

I'll be getting to transpositioning and modes in some time. I've got little time on my hands at the moment, so it'll probably be this evening or tomorrow. (Work in half an hour and I need to eat)

What you describe are inversions.

So in english transposition is using another key?
(It's hard to handle the theory, when you don't know english enough...)

transposing ( it think this is right) is changing the song from one key to another

ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:

Mode name	Note to start from
Ionian (major)	1st
Dorian	2nd
Phrygian	3rd
Lydian	4th
Mixolydian	5th
Aeolian (minor)	6th
Locrian	7th

This pretty much says it all to me.
Thanks TLS, the "lesson" couldn't be more compact.

The Aeolian becomes minor, due to the (whaddidyacallit) related key (like C major -> A minor).

ah so THATS whats modes are
i always thought they are something next complicated

so they are just like the different inversions for chords except for the scales

THANK YOU very much

Also remember that different modes give different feels so they can help you capture a certain mood when making music

I hope you know that if the rep system were still in place, you'd be swimming in green right about now

I ve read posts like this a hundred times and I always seem to get it till I get the fretboard in my hands. Then all go poof.

Nocturnal_Pulse wrote:I ve read posts like this a hundred times and I always seem to get it till I get the fretboard in my hands. Then all go poof.

Maybe you should take a fretboard diagram and work this stuff out on there, THEN take your bass.

ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:

Nocturnal_Pulse wrote:I ve read posts like this a hundred times and I always seem to get it till I get the fretboard in my hands. Then all go poof.

Maybe you should take a fretboard diagram and work this stuff out on there, THEN take your bass.

I have the scales in diagram on fretboard AND only finger diagrams.
I might just have to put more concetration on it...

Am I right in saying that if you're playing something using the Dorian scale starting on the D note, you're actually playing in C Dorian? That bit confuses me a little.

Pippynip wrote:Am I right in saying that if you're playing something using the Dorian scale starting on the D note, you're actually playing in C Dorian? That bit confuses me a little.

No, it's called "D Dorian", since you're playing a scale on the D, with the pattern of whole steps and half steps being dorian.

They are SCALES not KEYS.
Scale is the 7 notes of a key in order.
Playing within a scale is playing using the notes of that scale.

Don't try to find anything more complicated in here.
It's really that simple. It's not a subtheory or technique, just terms.

Ah. So it's in the key of D in the Dorian mode, and you're able to construct the Dorian scale by starting on C, moving to D and keeping the sharps and flats intact. I get it now. I think.

If someone knows more about these scales, please let me know too, but
the scales were originally created long ago for church music.

Now, I cooked up a wild theory, that maybe the question was the quite limited
note range of public singing in the church, so that the music had to be transponed to
a "standard" note range. Then it was more convenient to talk about key and mode.
I guess that often the mode alone gave a good idea for transponing the song
so that the public was able to sing it.

You were right as I understood you.
If you start with D, but use notes of C major, you are playing in C dorian.

turboscrew wrote:You were right as I understood you.
If you start with D, but use notes of C major, you are playing in C dorian.

Surely that's D Dorian (which happens to be in the key of C)?

OK, now I'm lost.

I've seen references to tonic which I've understood to be the base note of a key.

So is it considered to be different scale so that D dorian is considered to be
a D-based alternative scale that (just) happens to be the same as
C-key basic scale that is started from D-note?

So lydian is scale that starts with subdominant of the used key?
F lydian then says it all: it's C major key with scale starting from F?
In any other key, the intervals don't match.

So I was wrong both times, and it's a scale on the D in the key of C?

What about chords and chord progressions? For example, if you were using I-IV-V in D Dorian, would you play C - F - G or D - G - A?

Basically modes are the different patterns you get when you start from a different step in the same key. So in the key of C, if you play the notes of the key in order (i.e. C, D, E, F, etc.) you get the Ionian mode (the major scale). If you start on D, so D, E, F, G, etc., you get Dorian. Same goes for the other notes. That gives you seven modes/scales!

The reason each mode has a certain note associated with it (e.g. C Ionian, D Dorian, etc.) is that when they are played in the key of C, they start at that note. E.g. A Aeolian fits perfectly in the key of C, while B Aeolian doesn't, because Aeolian is a mode/scale that is derived from playing the notes in the key of C starting from A.
I hope this makes sense...

Pippynip wrote:So I was wrong both times, and it's a scale on the D in the key of C?

Yes.

Pippynip wrote:What about chords and chord progressions? For example, if you were using I-IV-V in D Dorian, would you play C - F - G or D - G - A?

In this case you would play C - F - G, but only because you're playing in the key of C. Keys are either major (or nothing e.g. key of C = key of C major) or minor. Nothing else (although obviously you can say, "To hell with this!" and proceed to play D - G - A, 'in the key of D Dorian', but them muso types might look at you funny ). So as D Dorian is in the key of C then you'd play in the key of C.

If you wanted to play in the Dorian mode (in any key), then your progression would have to start on the II chord (think about it... In the key of C, the II chord is D, and the mode associated with that position on the key of C is Dorian). So if you wanted to play the D - G - A progression, you'd be playing an II - V - VI progression. Then you can transpose it to any key as you know your coolio Dorian progression in numbers, and then you can say to them muso types, "Let's play a II - V - VI chord progression in the key of !" and they won't look at you funny, whilst you enjoy jamming Dorian style!

Hope I haven't confused anyone!

I thought I had it, but then I confused myself again. I really wish I'd taken an interest in playing and studying music years ago

So say you're playing in A Aeolian, with a I - IV - V chord progression. You could play A - D - E for as long as you like and you'd be playing in the key of A minor, but if you switch to C - F - G then you'd be playing in the key of C. That I understand, I googled it and I see there's a name for all of those, "relative keys".

But what I don't understand is when to use things like D Dorian. If the guitarist is still going to use C - F - G, then won't what you're playing sound a bit weak if you're playing using D Dorian? That's kind of what confuses me; how to actually build basslines around all these modes and chords and progressions and scales and keys and stuff and that's quite enough of the word 'and'.